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To sara gordon Or Not To sara gordon, That Is The Question

Rock Steady
Nuke Info Journal [7]
August 1993

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In a previous NuKE Informational Journal (#6), we had published an editorial by Rock Steady concerning the "know-about" and experiences that Rock Steady has encountered with Ms. Sara Gordon. To our surprise [yeah, right], Ms. Gordon denied several statements we had written about her, so we at NuKE asked Sara to write us a response pertaining to that article so we could publish it in the upcoming InfoJournal.

What you are about to read is the actual letter Ms. Gordon send us, untouched and unedited. The reason for this is so that Miss Gordon can comprehend that we in NuKE have no intention to bad-mouth anyone, nor will we let our emotional judgement cloud our writing. This "Information Journal" is factual hard-core information, and nothing less.

I want you to read the following two captures. One is the reply from Ms. Gordon. The second is a private reply from Ms. Gordon to John Buchanan (ARiSToTLE).

All sentences beginning with ">" (green - herm1t) are quotes from the original article in the previous IJ. The rest are Ms. Gordon's comments (and her vivid imagination). All sentences in brackets (blue - herm1t) are comments by Rock Steady and NuKE.

Capture #1 - Sara Gordon's Official Reply to NuKE

i've been sent your 6 info journal (not by one of your own people this time), and wanted to comment on something in it: the comments are both to you and to the fellow who wrote these quotations:

Get the picture? Yes, we all heard it before, I'm a deranged lair. The Anti-Virus community is not maniacal to associate themselves with us. We all heard of Sara Gordon screaming out, `I never called an underground exchange board', she will never admit it. Nevertheless Sara Gordon holds the phone

i do not say i have never called an underground exchange board. why, in our conversation last night i told you i have call them, to talk to the sysops and virus authors. i have called on at least 10 of them (not many, i know), that deal strictly with viruses. some in u.s.a., some not. i don't upload viruses to them. i don't call them to 'spy' on what is going on there. usually i call if i'm invited. i've talked about calling them in several articles. why would you think i would deny this.

10 times? 10 to what power? Don't upload viruses to them?! But you do upload viruses to the so-called AV, right? The AV is the cause of all the viruses out there, not us.

and i don't scream. thats the radish's job. and, i use my real name when i am the one calling. why, sometimes even other people call using my real name :).

You don't scream? Hmm, you sound calm enough -- I wondered what happened in the next capture!

however, if by association, you mean, do i do the same things you do, the answer is i do not; at least, i don't write and distribute computer viruses, or hacking/phreaking/carding information.

True, we don't harass people, or try to "double-dare" them to do vengeful acts for you. What's this now, you don't distribute computer viruses? Not even to the AV? Come on you know that is a lie. Sara, we don't suspect you of distributing viruses, we know you do. It's been proven by our receiving of viruses... If you must lie, please make them more believable, put in some statistics in 'em sentences, at least it'll be partially right.
number of Cybernetic Violence, Black Axes, The Hell Pit, etc. Sara doesn't

of course i've called black axis. or it is axes now? and, i've talked to kato at the hell pit a few times. voice, even, after the ridiculous phrack article. i think its been over a year now though since i've called him, or he has called me.

I know you have. I also know your "Dark Avenger article" was the best scam ever. ]<0oL YoU'r¯ ñ0w ÚNõ 0f ús!

ive never called cybernetic violence that i can remember, i think i may have it in an overhead slide for a presentation, but i've not called it.

i told you this last night. 'holds the phone number of'...gee, so does the phone company. and probably every law enforcement agency in the world.

Gee, Sara, but you seem so damn proud to tell people that you hold the numbers...
associate herself with low-lives like ourselves, as she explains. Nevertheless she has claimed to have called up The Hell Pit BBS, and uploaded 3 fake viruses and exclaims how easy it was to obtain virus access there. Now there's a

wait. what exactly are you talking about here? can you please explain

Oops, memory lapse!

this? it is easy to obtain access there. and yes, three dummy viruses were uploaded there to prove this point. it was a (very small) part of some research data gathered to illustrate that the real problem of virus exchange bbs was not the viruses but was the attitudes being presented and tossed about. why, screaming radish, you agreed with me just last night on the phone (when you called me) that a lot of those people are putting out attitudes that are the problem.

Our point exactly, and now your stealing our ideologies. You seem nice and calm in this message, but that is because you know that this article was to be published, but what about articles you don't expect published? Are you this well-bred in them? I think not, as we reveal your private e-mail in the next capture. BTW, any security flaws at the Hell Pit have been fixed long ago...there's no way she could get in now without a real virus.

as far as not associating with what you call 'low lives like ourselves', don't be silly. i never said i dont associate with anyone, i don't call virus exchange bbs and upload computer viruses, because i think that once i would let a virus out of my control, i would have done an irresponsible thing.

You didn't seem so distressed by helping to distribution of NED amongst the AV. Remember the AV are not better than us. They are not above the law, and they don't have "better" morals then we do. They think they do, but deep down its that money they wants. And they'll do whatever it takes to get it! Hmmm, capitalism, ain't it charm. Then you wonder why we wish to be anonymous, we have lives...

i've never called anyone a low life that i can recall. you are that one who keeps using that term regarding yourself. i know only a small portion of your lives, and wouldn't begin to judge you. i only say that certain actions of virus writers are irresponsible; those actions i can judge because i've seen the consequences of them

You can't recall? Humms, memory lapse (again), common in elderly women, isn't it?
contradiction. Now who are you going to believe? Rock Steady, with a record for hacking, and suspected of other cyber-crimes, or Sara Gordon with not even a bug-stain on her record? Wait, let me tell you some more. Sara Gordon is not totally `white', since Sara doesn't associate herself with `us', I guess the conversation we had concerning her wanting to invite a person called `Nowhere Man' to dinner was a figment of my imagination. Also, the crap she said to me,

of course i associate with you. why would you ever think i would say i don't. i did want to invite nowhere man to dinner. why not? ive had dinner with far more proficient virus writers and hackers than him :) seriously, why would you think i would be 'ashamed' of this?

wait! Now you associate with me? This memory lapse thing is much more serious than I thought! A word of advice when lying, Sara, try sticking to one and only one fabrication, don't start combining it with memory lapse and then other stories. Hell, why would you be ashamed of associating yourself with me. I can't think of any reason!?! This associating think scares me, I think its time NuKE chips in and gets you a man, unless of course that isn't your preference! (No offence intended.)
Well, Sara, name those "more proficient virus writers" you've "eaten" (69?) with. Perhaps your sweetheart, Dark Avenger? I can see it now, a bottle of wine, some roses, that charming Slavic accent...head over heels I tell you. See Rock, she is straight, after all! BTW, I have never claimed to be a hacker. I am not a hacker, and I resent being associated with hacking, which is an (wrongfully) illegal activity in most areas, whereas virus writing is not -- and I don't support illegal activities. I dunno, I bet her memory problems is caused by some new virus from Bulgaria...a sexually transmitted one. :-) -NM

i don't know what your problem is with me. i run a free bbs to give out information on viruses and security. i write articles that bring the positions of both sides into the public eye.

You bring the positions of both sides? Right...

im really quite tired of being quoted for things ive never said. get this straight--i do not find any problem with writing a computer virus.

Uh-oh, that memory problem again...

it's code. what is the problem, at least as i see it, is the irresponsible act of letting that code out of your control. as i said to SR, if you let people d/l viruses from your bbs, you are helping to increase the problem. you're helping to add to the already shaking trust situation that exists out there. well, since your last journal said this is your goal, to eliminate every last piece of user trust in anti-virus software (you specified frisk and mcafee, i think), i guess you are accomplishing your goal. congratulations. personally, i think its irresponsible, and not only that, you are helping some of the anti virus product developers who do prey on the same fears to keep right on taking advantage of the innocent users.

So what are you going to do? Outlaw Viruses to "regular" people? And only AVers will be able to hold virus collections? That's almost like racism. What makes you better than us? We do this for the intellectual challenge, we don't seek money, we only teach those that wish to be taught! We also teach awareness, truth, reality. At least we agree about the anti-virus makers, making big bucks from this. But we can't bluntly make a law that is "racist," you don't have to be from different ethnic groups to inflict racism you know.
about getting her in contact with virus writers in Australia, was a figment of my vivid imagination. Come on Sara, I heard it and you said it. Of course, this is simply my word against yours. Son of a gun Sara, didn't you hear all them `clicking' noises during our conversation? There was someone else on the line Sara! Someone, that kept on receiving calls, and therefore he/she had to switch and answer the call, via MaBells `Calling Waiting' service.

oh, you recorded the calls? i don't have call waiting, and i don't care if whoever listens to your calls listens to mine. yes, of course i said it. and yes, of course i wanted to get in contact with talon (harry mcbungus, terminator zed, et.al). i talk to a lot of virus writers, and hackers. what makes you think i would deny this? i would not deny this any more than i have publicly stated the errors i made when i first got involved in the fun world of computer viruses. i've never tried to hide any of this. in fact, ive had it published, in major publications, as well as conference proceedings. why do you think i'd try to hide my contact with anyone?

Of course you don't hide from contacting virus writers, it gets you alot of coverage, humm 4 straight issues of VNI, nice. I'm quite sure you got those articles laminated in wood, right? But what _measures_ will you seek to endure in these contacts. That is the question at stake, Sara.
See I guess this isn't after all, just a figment of my imagination. Since I conference the call, my phone bill supports the fact that two calls were made at the same time from my number! One was to the alleged person in the background while the other was yours! (Sara)

must be. i don't exactly understand what you are talking about, but i guess you do. i figured you were conferencing. hope you paid for it. by the way, why did you try to tell me you were talon? your accent is definitively from montreal.

Don't understand? Instead of memory lapse, you now conclude that you don't have an adequate grasp of the English language? Nice One! Hope I paid for it?! You think I'd risk calling anyone up fraudantly? That's illegal Sara, I'm sure I got tons of officials "expecting" me to do just that so they may get rid of me for good. Uh-uh girl, I wouldn't give anybody a second in the day to catch me in any illegal activity.

its pretty rude to allow other people to listen in to conversations; most adults wouldn't do it. do you think its just normal and acceptable to do it? i don't. however, i would not have 'denied' any inviting of virus writers to dinner or elsewhere even if you didn't have some 'proof'. i've clearly stated, in publication (see this months personal computer world u.k.) that i talk with a lot of virus writers.

Pretty rude? It's my word against yours. This way I got someone backing me up on your side. Don't expect CARO membership just yet, girl.
Oh yes, I'm a bored teenager derange liar wanting to bust balls. Frankly, no one admitted in NuKE is a teenager. Frankly I'm currently in a respectable banking position, nevertheless I still am pursuing my Masters in Mathematics, and may this even lead to a Ph.D., of course by then I'm expected to sprout out of my satanic puberty stage and into adulthood. Even though I'm way passed the legal adult age, may you still say its a hormone thing. Frankly, when just is not done and lies are tossed over to the public, discrediting our history, with your influence of power. <Yes, corruption of power> Until that day of just, until that day of truth comes out, then that will be the day you will get rid of me.

no one admitted in NuKe is a teenager? better check those birth certificates...

Lemme guess, its a reading problem now? Flash me yours and I'll show you mine <wink, wink>. Uh, birth certificates, I mean.
You see this isn't about me, this is about the you. <The AntiVirus community> This isn't something you `mature out of', when do you mature out of injustice? In what point of life is injustice okay?

it's not ever okay.

The Virus problem has been solved, now what about the Anti-Virus Problem?

okay, so after our talk last night i had a few ideas i wanted to talk about with you, but if this is the kind of thing you are going to print, i think probably you don't want to hear what i have to say. i think it seems you would rather print things you imagine.

Trust me, if this is your kind of attitude, take a walk sister. No fame coming to you from our direction...
sara
-- 

[email protected] / [email protected]   bbs: 219-273-2431
fidonet 1:227/190 / virnet 9:10/0 p.o. box 11417 south bend, in 46624
the villian goes to jail, the hero goes free. i wish it were that simple for me.
@Via RTrk 3:632/[email protected], Jun 25 1993 at 02:24

Capture #2 - The Juicy Part

In the following capture from Sara Gordon, who hot-bloodedly tried to shoot NuKE down due to our gain of public support Ms. Gordon still likes to imagine that NuKE is a bunch of hackers intent on viral destruction. This is as spurious as you can get, NuKE is a publicly available organization. Anyone is free to call up our systems and request access. We have nothing to hide, all is open. We wish to communicate with the public to a great extent. This also is an invitation for people in ALL walks of life who may speculate about NuKE to simply call us up! I cannot talk on behalf of every NuKENet BBS out there, as I cannot control them, but I can speak for myself, and I invite anyone to call the World Headquarters of NuKE, Cybernetic Violence, +1 514 426 9194. We feature a 14.4k v.32bis US-Robotics modem, and also have Bluewave mail installed into our BBS so that you may download/upload all messages without having to stay online reading messages. As we too understand that time is costly over the phone lines...

 * Originally by Sara Gordon, 1:227/190
 * Originally to John Buchanan, 1:271/297
 * Originally dated 24 Jul 1993, 11:35

 * Original: FROM: Sara Gordon
 * Original: TO: John Buchanan
 * Original: AREA: <V>_Local

 * Forwarded by Sara Gordon
 * Forwarded Using QuickBBS 2.76
 * Forwarded at 11:40 on 24-Jul-93

 In a message to Sara Gordon <07-24-93 10:29> John Buchanan wrote:
JB> Sara, I guess what makes me so cotton-pickin mad about the AV are posts like what I saw you direct towards me. The "ENTIRE" set of NUKE echoes

i only responded to a statement you made that is incorrect.

JB> are open to the public, yet you choose to imply they are private.

they are not open to the public. i don't imply it. i state it quite clearly. so, then you will be fwding the pertinent posts to the public? i bet. would you like me to do it for you? c'mon john. you don't expect me to believe that i will have access to those echos if i call you bbs? all of them? ok, lets see. you tell me i will, and ill call and check it out.

Notice the different attitude expressed by Miss Gordon, when she doesn't expect anyone to be reading private Netmail! Notice the hot-blooded tone of voice. Notice how she double dares Mr Buchanan ("c'mon john"), insinuating that John is afraid to post it to the public that NuKENet is available to anyone, which it is! As long you support NuKE ideologies, and respect what people have to say, then NuKENet can be easily obtained for your BBS. Actually I double dare Ms. Gordon to pick up NuKENet and make it publicly available to her users! I guarantee she won't "lower herself to our level"!
JB> Also, you state that they carry posts concerning PBXing and such. To my knowledge and extent of control, they do not exist and should they

you know they do. and you know that i know it. so lets stop playing around, at least have the decency to be honest about it.

What a <CENSORED>! She will not stop screaming! In the past, we have plucked out any system on NuKENet that posts any illegal material, such as PBXs! (Just in case Miss Gordon wonders what "illegal material" means to us.) Today, we still stand on that same agreement and we are happy to report that no such posts has made itself known on NuKENet! Sara claims she has many, many people that capture messages from NuKENet and bring them to her. Yet she has NEVER had any real proof of her phoney statement. Let's just face it, Sara's a FAKE!
JB> maker their appearance, I take EVERY action available to me to either squelch them or cut them off at the source. It really rips my tail when people in your position abuse the "language" of professionals

oh please, if you make every effort to cut it off then why is it so blatantly still there, repeatedly? im not in any 'position'. im just a normal person who lives in the cyberspace, and who is sick of seeing it get all screwed up.

Notice the attitude once more. She REFUSES to hear us out! We at NuKE understand, and have the dignity to respect any opinion Miss Gordon has to say, right or wrong, we have even published her reply to our previous NuKE IJ article, unedited! Yet, she refuses to hear us out, personally she seems to express a hatred towards us. And no matter what we do, Miss Gordon will always detest us. She complains that "virus writers" show utter hatred towards her. I guess they saw the real Ms. Gordon, as we are witnessing in this private e-mail.
JB> You wonder why I do the way I do in the echos. Nothing I post about the AV is made up in fabrication sessions. I try to inform the general public about their involvement in the virus exchange arena and the underlying motives in this issue of legislation. Why not take a different stand and research what I say? If it ok by you, I will

i have researched what you say, john. and what you do. what you post is made up in some cases. you want me to quote it for you? forget it. im finished trying to help a bunch of people who want to destroy what is precious to me, and to a lot of other people.

No, Miss Gordon, it is we whom have researched you. And not only did we not buy your first reply, according to the reply of NuKE IJ #6 article (that first reply was unbelievably bogus, as it didn't express any of your real opinions, it only expressed the opinions you wanted the public to behold), nevertheless we see the true Miss Gordon here, don't we?

if you want to talk about underlying motives of legislation, you are looking in the wrong place, john. its the virus d00dz like nowhere man, and the rest of the 'cute named guys (and gals) like 'pure energy', and that whole bunch that brought this down on us. not any anti-virus 'cartel' or that other nonsense you are talking about.

And now she insults us!
Oh, I'm a "virus d00d" now Sara, eh?! Is Dark Avenger a "virus d00d" too? Or does that label apply only to men you don't sleep with?! Are you trying to imply at Pure Energy is a "gal?" Well, I can assure you that he's not, I've spoken with him many times, and I can assure that he is a male. Uh oh, maybe I shouldn't have said that, now she'll probably be after you P.E.! -NM
JB> send you a small collection of 43 files that originated from Soloman's lab... check them out for yourself, but daggone girl, y'all ask me to stop posting these little messages, how about a tiny bit of help in this area...

if its ok by me. c'mon john. you promised to send me you viruses a long time ago so i could use them in my evaluations project. i've been working, doing - real - work, all this time, while you have been setting up you nuke the world, nuke this and nuke that. i doubt youd want the general public to see what goes on there. im so sick of it and by it that i dont even read what those guys send me from it any more. i dont know how you can look in the mirror after some of the stunts you pull.

No, no, no Miss Gordon, personally we don't know how you can look in the mirror after all theses stunts you pull. You only fantasize about our stunts, please let them be publicly known, as we have let your stunts be publicly known. I'm afraid you can't do it, as we don't pull "stunts." Only you Sara.

ill check out anything you send me, but i don't believe you anymore. not for a minute. if you were who you say you are, and were really concerned about the cyberspace environment, you would not say some of the things you say, creating more confusion, accusing good decent people of things that they don't do.

The only confusion here is your change of attitude, Miss Gordon.

and by the way, 'infiltrate' is not my word. i didn't write it and the editor has issued a retraction

"Infiltrate" not your style? Right, isn't that a requisite course for those associated with .mil (military)! Yes, I can see it now, this is truly a conspiracy in the making. Can't you governmental people do anything right?
Rock Steady/NuKE
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